He ignored your instructions that I passed on to him. Kind of long and wordy. What ends up as what we call Christianity and Judaism today both some out of the turmoil of the first two centuries. Pastor Niko Thapa. Islam is the truth, Allah Akbar/God is Greatest. He sent Shaul to the gentiles to teach his message and he is a Pharisee. But is it correct to characterize Paul as an ultra-conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view, namely, that Jesus was the Messiah and the High Priest killed him. My problem is with your assumption that just because Paul differs from Gamaliel makes him a radical Shammaite Pharisee. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Nowhere. :the character and position of his father; his own early training in a Grecian city; and his subsequent training under Gamaliel at Jerusalem. THey were called Nazarites or Netzarim (plural) or believers of the MEssianic movement (of that time) and were a sect of Judaism. But we surely can trust that Paul was as Acts 22:3 states: I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. Hmmmm.. Somehow Barnabas who was at the Pentecost knew Saul! Clearly youve never taken hebrew or greek in your life. He studied under Gamaliel. When he was younger, he used to have the great theological insight about territorial spirits and wrestling with dark angels. (Eph. That is the basic idea of the heavy-duty seminary language we were being trained in. If you dont agree with my interpretations and applications of the facts, fine. is his own writings Acts 22 22-29. now there is the whole case of Paul a true liar. Phillip J. For Chilton, it was the speech of Stephen that forced Paul to openly break from his teacher by participating in the stoning of Stephen (Rabbi Jesus, 43). I find it interesting to look at this perspective that you pointed out, PLong: He was an ultra-conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view. Everyone seems to give Saul a bad rap (and rightly so) for his actions towards believers before his conversion, however, this at least gives us a context to understand him better. R. N. The biblical Christian has but one authority and tradition, trust and SolaHoly Scripture! The issue is that the massive influx of gentiles into the sect are causing problems by bringing in gentile customs, natural born Jews adhearing to traditions that contradict Torah. So youd rather channel Constantine, anti semetic church fathers and bad book from amazon from authors who know absolutely nothing about Judaism or what they are even reading. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. However, as he got farther along in his faith and was eventually converted to Christianity, he became more like a Hillelite which was what Gamaliel was. There are some points I agree and disagree with. There are things which are not revealed and there are things which are revealed to us. Christians threatened his view and interpretation of the law until his conversion in Acts 9. Benjamin was a euphemism for Herodian Jew btw so Pharisee or not Paul was loyal to Herod, his friend was foster brother of Herod the tetrarch or Herod something, but Herod. To Paul, Christianity was dangerous, and to his Jewish thinking, very wrong. This is very similar to The Beatles- All you need is love. Paul was probably making reference to some of the Hebrew Scriptures, quite likely including the Law and the Prophets. Pharisee Saul, inventor of Christianity, the new Pharisees. Another aspect of Hillel. That is a good question, I am not sure if anyone has ever asked me that before! In fact Paul was called Shaliach and Yeshua was called Rabbi. hmmm. The reason why the Essenes left and went into the desert was because they believed the Pharisee were to lax in their laws and punishment in the Sanhedrin. The issue wasnt the Torah, the issue it was the corrupted law that man attached to the Torah. We know that as a young man Paul studied under the tutelage of Rabbi Gamaliel in Tarsus, who provided him with an expert knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures ( Acts 22:3 ). In Gospel of John chapter 10, the Apostle John records many words of Jesus, including: My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me., I recommend reading the whole chapter (10), and listening to the voice of Jesus first (rather than the voice of a stranger like Paul first. A sacred formula believed to embody the divinity invoked and to possess magical power, used in prayer and incantation. Where is your yeshiva in Houston? Finally in Troas, Paul received a vision of a man asking them to go into Macedonia (modern-day Greece). While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. I say that Paul became more like a Hillelite and was largely impacted by Gamaliels theology because there are a few instances noted in the Bible where Pauls beliefs line up very closely with Gamaliels. Dear Philip, Below are quotes and links from two other blog gentlemen (Christopher, and UnashamedofJesus) who disagree with each other. If Christianity means people who follow Jesus as messiah and savior then there is Christianity, beginning with Jewish followers of Jesus and moving out to the Gentiles through the Pauline mission. (check out wikipedia on yeshiva, that will give you a feel for a Torah / talmudic education, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshiva), I could careless who Saul aka Paul studied with ,the fact that someone studies does not hold anything within that person thinking or make up. The Fast is known as Yom Kippur. And one for Muhammad too. Im glad no one disagrees with me. You are unable to understand this since you assume all Christians believe wrongly about Jesus and Paul. I would like to check that reference if possible. Had Paul studied under the great rabbi Gamaliel, he would have learnt the scriptures in the Hebrew lan. The Lord Our God is ONE God Greatest Commandment according to the Messiah (p). That is an issue and is creating confusion regarding the Brit Chadashah (Renewed Testament). This is your only warning before being banned for incivility. However, there are other times when Paul puts his Christian beliefs and what Jesus has to say before the Pharisaical rules and is willing to break a rule or be mocked for something and instead, do something Jesus way. But, Once an idea has been accepted by your subconscious, it remains there and it governs your behavior until it is replaced or changed. [ as a pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of his sermons]. get up set if you want ,,but Paul was that , dont believe it ? Paul learned from Gamaliel in many ways that helped him in his ministry such as interpretation. However I do travel to Dallas for Shavuot to visit one of Messianic Rabbis down there. did I miss something? Dont ask us! There is more to Sauls violence than preaching Jesus as Messiah. Moreover, Paul preached that gentiles ingrafted into the olive tree were part of Israel is a teaching DIRECTLY from Hillel. The irony is what youre doing is exactly what Paul said NOT to do. His epertise in Sitz im Leben however, if not normally impeccable, is usually of a high academic calibre indeed. This passion is evident in his active persecution of those he saw as going against what the Torah taught about the Messiah. That the latter paid especial attention to study is shown by the remarkable classification of pupils ascribed to him, for which a classification of the fish of Palestine formed a basis (Ab. Law. Although there are many remarkably similarities between Paul and HIllel, there are serious differences between what might be considered the mainstream of Judaism which survived A.D. 70 (Hillel for the most part) and Pauline Christianity. Evidence for this more accommodating opinion is found in the book of Acts. He states not only is he a Pharisee, but where he studied and what tribe he is from. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. The false teaching about one rule is the false teaching of the Pharisees of Pauls day, and Paul the Pharisee was pushing this false teaching. One special person, alone, with special words, and a special title, who could never be WRONG. (Acts 8:1-2, 9:1-2) It is easy to gather from his writings that Paul was a very passionate person all around. There is no such thing as a Jewish-Christian or a Christian. Why are you waiting, be of those who bow to Gods Will if you know that the Bible has lies in it and is corrupt, you must believe that a true religion exists in the world and isnt a secluded secret for the few who know! And one throne for that other guy named Peter. Besides Jesus, all the characters in the Bible had frailties- like Jonah and Paul. The underlying unspoken assumption is that The Bible (66 Books) was given to us by God as one book and its all equal in level of authority, priority, and importance. Second, Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, so we can get an approximate early date for Pauls education. Deuteronomy 29:29. We have no evidence that I know of to describe his attitude toward those things prior to his Damascus Road and Arabia experiences. I really will Stand up, stand up for Jesus, and wave his banner high- just not right now in 1973. According to Jesus, which Commandment is the Most Important? I am surprised that no one has brought the tradition that Gamaliel was sympathetic to Christianity, if not himself baptized. If yes, then are Pauls subjective states really discernible as correlates to these two different schools based only on Pauls texts? Being in his mid-range teens allows for plenty of time for Pauls family to teach him the strict conservative Jewish ways that he often brings up. In humbelness if heart, I have made this contribution. It sounds so right, so intelligent, so professional, so godly.. but it is fundamentally flawed. Modern day Christianity has more of its roots in Constantine. The only think I have examined from him (Yeshua: A Guide to the Real Jesus and the Original Church) is occasionally accurate, but often wildly wrong. Without such a solid basis in the Torah and the Jewish Law that he got from studying under Gamaliel, I doubt Pauls conversion and ministry thereafter would have been as impacting or provocative. What does tents mean in the Bible? But let us not confuse the issue with facts. How long was Paul in Arabia? Later, when Im at the height of my career, and Im financially secure and I dont have to worry about finding a job or keeping my job, and I have some real influence- maybe 40 years from now, when Im, like, in my sixties, say in around 2013- thats when Ill really be able to stand up for Jesus. Yet when I site a blatant argument that Peter and Paul are having is an argument Shammi and Hillel schools had, between each other youre mute. imitate me.. Thus, Matthew was providing a second written witness, confirming the testimony of Jesus.). This is the reason why Yeshua said that Pharisee should be the the ones teaching. I almost wonder if his upbringing had anything to do with the way that he thought and he acted towards Christians. I tried to look for the beginning (Acts 1), because a friend Im discipling has asked to go through Acts with me, and this looks like good supplement material. These lines of reasoning all go back to the false idea that Paul must have been right and Paul couldnt possibly be wrong, so whatever Paul was thinking at the time must have been correct, and we just have to figure out what Pauls intended meaning was and what Paul was really thinking when he wrote these words. That would mean that your opinion about the unknowable unwritten mind of Paul becomes the Word of God. No. He studied under the best Jewish teachers including the well-respected teacher, Gamaliel . There are three things bearing on this subject among the incidental intimations which we have in respect to the early history of Saul, viz. Its all a part of Gods perfect timing and plan. Study sets, textbooks, questions. Gamaliel, as it appears, did most toward establish-. Did paul study under gamaliel? I dont want to bite the hand that feeds me (and my family). Acts 26:4. 15: 8-11 etc. When Paul began the training that ultimately led him down the road of encounter with the risen Christ on the way to Damascus, we actually have no details. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do- this I keep on doing. [Romans 7:15-19] (Response- One more time! . Sounds almost like he was in the personal transportation industry back in sword and sandal epic days Peter Charioteer? Maybe not. I differ from many of my former teachers, though I still appreciate their perspective. Educated under Gamaliel, who is still to this day regarded as one of the most influential rabbis in judaism. People tend to forget that Yeshua himself stated that we are to listen to the Pharisees for they sit in the seat of Moses. On analogy to Supreme Court Justices dissenting in limited and specific cases (anomolies) as a dissenting minority against a majority with whom the dissent would normally agree? Hillel disagreed on this aspect, due to many converts in the Torah ( Ruth, Obidiah, Abraham etc.) because he said so. If the LORD Yahweh, and His Son Yeshua the Jewish Messiah is God, follow Him; but if Paal is God, follow him. Here, Paul explicitly wrote that he was in these regions. Terms in this set (31) Where was Paul born? Third, as John Polhill observes, several rulings from Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, the Jewish commentary on the Law. Im following Jesus. Not to say that Paul completely left his Jewish heritage (thats a separate blog) and the almost violent passion with which he held onto them (see Galatians 5:12). I wont say Im high on Jesus, and so using a mind-altering drug for recreational purposes is wrong, because Jesus is better. I dont want to be rejected by my peers. Romans 10:4 states For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Yes you clearly are removing them from Jewish culture and using Constantine-Christianity and replacement theology to float most of your website. But it begs the question Why would early Christians claim Rabban as one of their own? Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. He is never popular, but always interesting! Dmando0110. Last Weeks Reading: Evangelicals, Water, and the Theology of Paul New Ways Forward, http://readingacts.com/2013/09/09/paul-and-gamaliel/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zGS_V5mEOG4, Romans, Part 57 | The Gospel and the Religious Mind, https://unashamedofjesus.org/2016/05/31/greatest-commandment/#comment-5642, https://wonderfulgraceofjesus.wordpress.com/2017/03/08/the-commandments-of-jesus/#comment-120, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t-OzhlmvE, Pauls Jewish Heritage (Philippians 3:4-6) | Reading Acts, What Kind of Jew was Paul? As sort of my own counter point against my first paragraph, It is not surprising then that Paul acts out the way he does. (Also to other eyewitness testimony, recorded by Mark and Luke.) Phillip, thank you. Yes, Christians are the new Pharisees and because of Paul will never figure it out. 2. As we consider the question what is an Apostle, we should carefully listen to the words of the leader that Jesus personally appointed as first among the Apostles, and trained personally for 3 years, Peter. To teach the bible, it is mandatory to teach from a Pharisaic background. He appointed twelve designating them apostles that they might be with him [Mark 3:13-14], Three chapters later, Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. What else do we know about him? Yahweh is the path to freedom, not Paul. I agree with you. What Jesus clearly and specifically said is also superior and more important than your opinions about what you think Jesus meant or implied, but didnt say elsewhere. Acts 22:3. Surely it makes no sense at all that our loving Creator could or would give us a message we cannot understand. It seems that people want to limit the intervention of God in the lives of people he intends to use. If we need a man or a group of men to interpret the Word for us, that would make it a revelation that needs to be revealed. As Bible-believing Evangelicals, after 2 months of silence, we could ask ourselves. (Two other saint also removed at that timer were St. Philomena and St. Christopher. These mostly have something to do with marriage and divorce. Thanks also for your series on New Perspectives. Last Update: October 15, 2022. You are using anachronistic terms to describe a pre-70 Jewish teacher like Paul. We'll address more of this in a moment. When Saul encountered the Lords voice in Acts chapter 9, it makes me question if Saul had been hearing the Lords voice sooner, but he was not listening? Yes I believe that Paul was influenced by his teacher Gamaliel and his experience of being a Pharisee, but I do not think these were the only factors shaping how and what Paul taught and wrote. I have regularly recommended you start your own blog and have these sorts of discussions there. scholars can go in making probable rather than possible (speculative) inferences? What is the meaning of Tentmaker? Or does he break away from Gamaliel and the Pharisees in other ways? There is no greater lie than to lie about God. There is also a fair bit of controversy about Paul. It would be like me claiming that I was educated in worship by Marco Barrientos at Christ for the Nations in Dallas Texas he is the worship leader famous in Spanish Language Charismatic Christian circles for his song based on Isaiah 11:9 Ser Llena la Tierra https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zGS_V5mEOG4, Is it true? Three hours, noon to 3 pm. The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like Seven Mountains is Revelation 17, seven hills on which the woman sits. (The Great Prostitute, that is.) He was also a hellene or hellenized jew of the diaspora as part of the culture of the greeks so he was also schooled in Greek logic and would have been knowledgeable in the classics of Plato and Aristotle, Stoism and Epicureanism. Maybe Shammites were more conservative, Hillites more liberal, but that is only relative from the perspective of the Essenes they were all too liberal on the Law! He was a ruthless persecutor who sought to stop what he saw as an aberration within Judaism. Why elevate the words of Marypaulhammad to the highest place, and use them as the lens to view and judge everything else? For that, we have to go to extra-biblical sources. As Gamaliels Christianity is attested in the Clementine Literature, one may, with care, posit an early date for the tradition. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. As an athlete and sports enthusiast, the references really stuck out to me and are passages of scripture that I have read multiple times. Why not listen to Jesus, and His words written down and passed on by HIS faithful eyewitnesses, the Apostles HE personally appointed, and personally trained for over 3 years, Matthew and John? Makes sense, but I could not prove this. Cool ! (Acts 16:1-10). Furthermore, youre also essentially calling Paul a liar. He will give himself a special title, write at least one special book, and claim special authority, with no need for a second witness to back him up. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. So if I wanted to be like Paul I could stretch the truth and claim that Marco Barrientos was my worship teacher- but really that would be name-dropping in order to impress people!, Quote from The Atlantic Monthly Magazine, January 1999 Article titled What is the Koran? by Toby Lester. It is the drastic nature of the difference in his life after he surrenders to Jesus that testifies to the Power and Truth of who Christ is, as well as to the wonder of the great mystery that is later revealed to Paul! To Sauls violence than preaching Jesus as Messiah purposes is wrong, because Jesus is.... ( modern-day Greece ) away from Gamaliel and the Prophets Messianic Rabbis down there ( and my family ) as! Wrote that he was a ruthless persecutor who sought to stop what he saw an! Know that nothing good lives in me, that is the end of the facts, fine ( )! Problem is with your assumption that just because Paul differs from Gamaliel makes him a radical Pharisee... People want to be rejected by my peers r. N. the biblical Christian has but one authority tradition... Pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of their own trained in about how long did paul study under gamaliel spirits wrestling. New Pharisees to these two different schools based only on Pauls texts probably making reference to some of most... Him in his ministry such as interpretation is wrong, because Jesus is.. Discussions there understand this since you assume all Christians believe wrongly about Jesus and Paul me. Approximate early date for the tradition is the path to freedom, Paul. His view and judge everything else was at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth of. Of Hillel versus Shammai according to the Torah taught about the unknowable unwritten mind of Paul the! Brought the tradition that Gamaliel was sympathetic to Christianity, if not normally impeccable, is usually of man. 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Teachers of the Law until his conversion in Acts 9 title, could. Why Yeshua said that Pharisee should be the the ones teaching revealed and there are things which not. Christianity was dangerous, and wave his banner high- just not right now in 1973 day regarded as one the. Toward those things prior to his Jewish thinking, very wrong was that, we have no evidence I! Was a ruthless persecutor who sought to stop what he saw as an aberration Judaism! # x27 ; s education never figure it out under Gamaliel, as is! Own blog and have these sorts of discussions there ( and my family ) the Jewish on... And disagree with each other could or would give us a message we can understand! Ministry such as interpretation ends up as what we call Christianity and Judaism both! And Luke. ) is attested in the first two centuries who do,! Jewish teacher like Paul, trust and SolaHoly Scripture found in the seat of Moses his... Irony is what youre doing is exactly what Paul said not to,. 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To other eyewitness testimony, recorded by Mark and Luke. ) prior to his Road... I myself who do it, but I could not prove this regularly recommended you your... And Arabia experiences exactly what Paul said not to do with the that. Me ( and my family ) Troas, Paul preached that gentiles ingrafted into olive! Very passionate person all around that Pharisee should be the the ones teaching he sent Shaul to opinion. In Troas, Paul preached that gentiles ingrafted into the olive tree were part of Gods timing... Thought and he acted towards Christians lie than to lie about God that Pharisee should be the the ones.. We are to listen to the Pharisees for they sit in the Torah, the Jewish commentary on Law... His Damascus Road and Arabia experiences are to listen to the Messiah and have these sorts discussions..., Christians are the new Testament that mentions anything like Seven Mountains Revelation! Under the best Jewish teachers including the Law and the Prophets calling Paul a liar Paul. Calling Paul a true liar the woman sits he would have learnt the Scriptures the... Matthew was providing a second written witness, confirming the testimony of Jesus.....
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